不断发展的CHRO角色:技能、影响和Clichés

欢迎来到另一集激动人心的人力资源知识!这是为人力资源专业人士和商业领袖准备的系列文章，他们希望自己的组织能够经得起未来的挑战，并从行业专家、chro和思想领袖那里了解最新的趋势和见解。

CHRO需要做什么才能成功?在人力资源第二季的这一集中，我们与Kantar APAC Insights的CHRO Narelle Burke坐下来讨论如何与首席财务官和首席执行官合作，帮助CHRO成为更好的商业领导者。

Narelle是一位经验丰富的CHRO，负责制定和执行凯度的战略人力资本计划。她以其在组织领导、转型和变革方面的工作而闻名。

在这段视频中，我们将讨论:

• 最重要的伙伴关系
• chro的关键技能
• 人力资源总监的执行力发展

观看完整集，了解chro如何发展他们的技能，成为伟大的商业领袖。

记录:

Narelle伯克:我认为，我认为原因是，如果你在人力资源部门工作，而你没有这种合作关系，那么你就没有发言权，因为你对商业决策没有影响，你没有平等的发言权。我认为最强大的组织是那些能平衡人员和绩效或绩效和人员的组织。就决策类型和对业务的投入而言，他们绝对是水平的。所以我认为最好的组织是那些建立了强有力的伙伴关系的组织。所以我认为发展关系的能力并不重要，你知道企业是如何赚钱的吗?你和首席财务官是最好的朋友吗?如果不能，为什么不能?你该如何开始这样的对话呢?

尼Verlinden大家好，欢迎来到全新一期的《人力资源知识》。我是Neelie，在今天的节目中，我请来了Narelle Burke。Narelle是Kantar APAC insights的CHRO。我已经等不及要开始我们的谈话了。在我们开始之前，像往常一样，如果你还没有订阅我们的频道，点击通知铃，并点赞这个视频。

尼Verlinden:欢迎来到新一期的人力资源知识。现在，让我欢迎纳雷尔来到我们的节目。嗨,Narelle。你好吗?

Narelle伯克:嗨，尼莉，我很好。很高兴在这里和你聊天。

尼Verlinden:是的。我很高兴你们能来到这里。我想问一下，纳瑞尔，你今天从哪里来参加我们的活动?

Narelle伯克:我现在在新加坡这个美丽的国家，这里很好，总是很热，也很可爱。

尼Verlinden:好的。好了,好了。在我们开始对话之前，Narelle，对于那些还不认识你的观众，你能多告诉我们一些关于你自己和你在卡纳塔尔APAC insights所做的工作吗?

Narelle伯克:我能。我已经在凯度工作了7年。我的角色是负责亚太区洞察力的CHRO。我们有大约3000人。我的职责是与我们的首席财务官和首席执行官合作，通过我们的人才帮助业务更有效地运行，这是我们业务最重要的部分之一。

尼Verlinden:谢谢你。我特别高兴能和你谈论这个话题，纳雷勒。因为这也是我们在2023年人力资源趋势中确定的主要主题或趋势之一，CHRO的角色不断变化。然而，这并不意味着这将是一个有趣的对话，只有那些已经在这个角色的人，或谁是首席人事官，因为我们将接触到各种元素，我认为，肯定是非常有趣的每个人在人事领域工作。也许我们可以从为什么你和首席财务官的关系对你作为CHRO的成功如此重要开始?

Narelle伯克:是的，这真的很重要。如果我想经营一家专业服务企业，我们就是这样，我们企业的主要成本是人力成本，人力资源部门或财务部门做出的任何决定都会对员工产生影响。特别是在我们的组织内部，我们很早就确立了凳子上的三条腿，你的CEO，你的CFO和你的CHRO，对你所做的所有决定都是绝对必要的。不仅仅是人，还有基于业务和财务的决策。所以这种合作关系和确保同步是非常重要的。一年多前，我们换了首席财务官。其中一部分是帮助她了解业务。因此，当它开放时，在新冠疫情后的环境中，我们说的一件事是:“能走出去了解业务发生了什么变化，看看我们的员工是如何演变的，以及业务表现如何，这很棒。”我们从人员和绩效，人力资源和财务以及合作伙伴的角度来看待它。在过去的四到五个月里，我们一直在这样做。 And importantly, both of us go into it understanding what’s happening in the business, we can make key decisions, we can inform on strategy and people and finance decisions. And you have that partnership in the room to be able to do that. So we talk about the metrics and why they’re important for HR and finance. We talk about the management reporting, and how we balance that out. We talk about the resourcing needs and how we can support that. And so everything we do is in partnership, which is really important. And going out to the markets has been an extension of that. And the impact it’s had is that we both go in with a consistent understanding of the market, their needs from a people and performance perspective, so that we can help to support our business leaders in those markets to make better decisions.

尼Verlinden:是的，当你，当你这么说的时候，纳瑞尔，跟你合作对我来说很有意义。我记得你在我们谈话开始时提到，CEO、CFO和CHRO之间也有这种关系。所以他们三个，我稍后会在我们的谈话中回到这一点。也许我们还可以看看这一关系中更实际的方面。那么，这种伙伴关系是如何——它是如何影响组织内部董事会的决策的?

Narelle伯克:是的,当然。我可以从很多角度来做。首先是制定策略和预算。一个是我们如何在整个地区运作，以及它如何影响市场。所以从战略和预算的角度来看，我们目前正在为未来12个月制定计划，这意味着当我们制定我们想要实现的计划和商业目标时，我们会从一个非常平衡的角度来看待它。因此，我们从市场的角度来看待它，以及市场在收入增长方面实际上可以提供什么。但我们也在考虑自己是否具备实现这一目标的人才和能力。商业要求是什么?我们需要的能力是什么?我们有能力支持吗? And so our strategy and our budget also has a very detailed people plan that sits behind that, which means that we’re thinking about strategy in action, we’re thinking about the implications of all of the decisions we make, and what are the – not only the financial, but the people implications and how we can support that. So it supports it from a strategic perspective in that all of our planning or budgeting is aligned between HR Finance, and the business. From a regional perspective, any decisions we make on headcount hiring, utilisation, the ability to manage our people and our attrition, all of those areas, come back into us making joint decisions. So if you were looking at: do you need to hire more people? You’re looking at, well, how is the market utilised? You know, what type of pipeline? Do they coming in? Do we have the people to be able to deliver on that? Or do we need to support it in a different way? You look at it from an organisational design perspective, which is do we have the right organisation designed to support the growth that we need? If not, how do we review that? How do we review the spans and layers in the way that we deliver work? And that all has financial as well as HR and talent implications. Or if we’re looking at revenue growth and client growth, we’re looking at, well, what are the capabilities that we need to do that? And do we need to hire or develop? So every decision that we make at the regional lens has either a finance or a people component to it, and they both impact on each other. And at a market lens, it means that we’re united, we’re in sync, we’re doing principle based decisions on how we’re trying to support the growth. And we’re aligned whenever we have those conversations at a market level to support them.

尼Verlinden:太棒了。我真的很喜欢你从不同的角度给了我们一个想法，因为当然，当你在合作中做这件事的时候，你必须从不同的角度去看，或者通过不同的角度。是的，我认为，纳雷勒，对于那些可能还没有这种关系的观众来说。他们真的很想在此基础上继续发展。你能跟他们说些什么?你是如何与首席财务官建立这种关系的?也许你可以给一些建议，或者你可以和别人分享一些技巧?

Narelle伯克:是的。所以我认为这是我在很长一段时间内作为合作伙伴的标准运作方式。我认为，我认为原因是，如果你是一个人力资源的角色，而你没有这种合作关系，那么你就没有一个席位，因为你对商业决策没有影响，你没有平等的发言权。我认为最强大的组织是那些能平衡人员和绩效或绩效和人员的组织，他们在决策类型和对业务的投入方面绝对是水平的。所以从我的角度来看，它已经承认，无论你在哪里，确保你了解首席财务官的角色，企业如何赚钱?他们想要达到什么目的?他们的目标是什么?以及他们如何影响企业的人员方面。如果你理解了这一点，那么你就可以把它映射回去:“这对人们的影响，这些是我需要的输入。这就是它如何帮助你实现这些目标。 This is the role that I can play in supporting you so that we’re aligned and supported”. And it’s not just a finance directive. It’s a business decision, which impacts on finance, and people. Therefore, you know, we’ve got a partnership and how we work through it. And I think where you develop those partnerships through a sense of mutual accountability, and supporting each other and wanting to work together to support the business, it’s a much healthier relationship because you’re helping each other out and it doesn’t become a adversarial or one sided. Where I’ve seen it not work is where finance decisions have a significant impact on people and you don’t realise it until it happens, or where the people decisions are put at the forefront, and you end up with unprofitable and unsustainable businesses. And so I think the best organisations are those that do form that strong partnership. And so I think it’s less the ability of developing the relationship and going, do you understand how the business makes money? And are you best friends with the CFO? And if not, why not? And how do you start to open that conversation up?

尼Verlinden:是的，我认为这是一个很好的观点。我认为可能存在的问题不是他们没有能力或知识，而是他们的心态或信心，以及确保在董事会上也能表现出来的能力。所以我认为这可能是挑战所在。所以我想说的是，在你看来，什么样的技能对chro有用?所以，是的，我的意思是，一个显而易见的，我认为我们已经触及了一点，那就是商业头脑。但我的意思是，你认为还有哪些事情是非常重要的?当然，这也是基于你自己的经验。

Narelle伯克:是的。第一个是商业头脑，你需要了解企业是如何赚钱的。你还需要了解财务状况，所以你需要能够读懂损益表。您需要了解业务将要运行的财务指标是什么。我认为另一个问题是，在这方面你能带来什么。所以如果我考虑我的角色，你知道，什么样的数据类型，报告，劳动力计划也可以帮助支持这一点。所以你需要了解你所需要的业务、财务、指标和损益表，同时还要能够将数据和数据决策、数据驱动的决策带到桌面上。所以对我来说，这是最基本的，你需要能够提供一些东西。我想说的第二件事是:相信我们所扮演的角色!所以这么多年来，我一直听说人力资源部门需要有一席之地，我说，当然不，把那个位置拉上来，有一个一席之地，相信你的角色很重要，了解你创造的价值。 And if you can’t articulate that, then go and figure out how you can articulate that. And how do you articulate it in a way that makes sense for the business? What drives business performance, through the people agenda? And I think that’s, I think that’s really important. Because if you don’t believe the role we have is valuable, then why are they going to believe it? And if you can’t articulate it, how are you going to explain to them the value that you bring to the role. So there’s, there’s the second piece there. And I think the third piece around it, is really around – what I’ve heard, and what frustrates me is that HR is the soft side of the business. And I’m like, if it was that easy, and it was soft, then we wouldn’t have so many people trying to figure it out. So what we do is not soft, it is just not as easy to measure at times in terms of the value that it creates. It doesn’t mean it’s less important, it doesn’t mean that it’s not critical to business’ success, it just means it’s more challenging to measure exactly how it impacts on the bottom line. So if you’re thinking about culture, there’s plenty of, you know, consultancies out there that will say the importance of culture, you are the guardians of the culture. If you think about capabilities, and you go into business, the majority of businesses right now are struggling with the capabilities they need now, and in the future, fundamental to driving business value and performance. If you think about engagement, absolutely fundamental to driving performance, particularly in a hybrid environment. And if you think about any other dimension, whether it’s productivity, it is all about people, particularly in a people based business. So at the end, the strategic things that you drive in these roles are fundamental to business success, and have a fundamental role on business value. You just need to be able to articulate that and it’s slightly harder than the numbers sometimes. So I would come back to, you knoe, you absolutely need to believe in yourself. You need to have the business acumen. But you also need to ensure you’re driving the right things that impact on business performance.

尼Verlinden:是的。我的意思是，我喜欢你说的话，也相信你的角色。我是说，这是非常重要的一个。这将带给我的第二点,但我在谈论今天的谈话,我们要与同事在人力资源和他提到了如何在某一时刻如果你在CHRO或人总监的位置,而不是垂直思考,比方说,公司内部人力资源组织,你真的需要改变你的思考水平业务的思维方式。所以他和我分享了他认为这是非常重要的。你对此有什么看法?

Narelle伯克:我想，我的意思是，我不反对。但如果你问任何一位企业领导人，他们关心人力资源是如何组织的，以及他们如何称呼自己吗?就像，我的意思是，你弄清楚了，你是函数，你弄清楚了你想要如何被设置，你想要如何被组织，你想要如何驱动事物。如果我回到我认为真正有影响的是:你对业务结果有影响吗?你们能清楚地看到吗?你能通过这些来创造价值吗?如果你正在帮助企业解决他们最大的问题，帮助他们创造价值，我不确定他们是否对你的组织方式感兴趣。他们想要的是容易相处，是你理解他们想要达到的目标。你可以根据需要提供价值。所以从功能的角度来看，我并不反对这种想法。 But from a business lens, I would say I’m not sure that they’re that interested on how we’re organised.

尼Verlinden:接下来，当我们谈到对首席人事官来说重要的技能时，你对首席人事官的高管发展有什么看法?我之所以问这个问题，是因为这对其他C语言的角色来说是很常见的，比如首席财务官，但对chro来说，还没有那么多的关注。你对此有什么看法?人力资源总监的执行力发展。

Narelle伯克:是的，我认为这是一个非常好的问题。我认为我们在这个领域花的时间也不够多。我想我们在忙着培养其他人。我认为，你知道，对于chro，或任何高级人力资源职位，我认为你必须首先成为一名商业领袖。你是一名商业领袖，专注于人才和人才，这就是你要做的。但最核心的是，你必须是一个好的商业领袖，你需要能够在对话中做出贡献，这些对话往往超出了你的专业领域，但它们对文化、设计或领导力有根本性的影响。所以我认为在发展方面，你需要紧跟商业事件和正在发生的事情。你需要了解更广泛的情况，比如现在，你需要了解COVID正在发生什么，你需要了解欧洲和北美目前在宏观经济形势方面正在发生什么。所以你需要像商业领袖一样阅读。我认为这非常非常重要。 You need to read the Financial Times or whatever is the the equivalent in your markets. I think the second thing that I would say is that, depending on the organisation you’re in, you need to ensure that you’ve got a handle on the most important needs at that time. So if you’re going through – we’re owned by private equity – if you’re owned by private equity, do you understand how private equity works and the types of decisions they make? What are the implications likely to be on leadership? If you’re divesting or you’re doing M&As you need to understand how that works. If you’re going through a reshaping of the business, you need to understand org design. So I think there are some core HR fundamentals depending on what life stage your businesses at, and what’s critical, because it’s not the same for everywhere. Some will be an AR focus, some will be an OD focus, some will be more around mergers and acquisitions and the heavier stuff. And then underneath that, you need to be a really good leader. And what I mean by that is you need to be strategic in your thinking, you need to be able to deliver results, you need to be able to understand change in alignment and how that works. You need to be able to have really good interpersonal skills and be inclusive and diverse in that thinking. So I think there are different areas that CHROs need to look at which are from a business lens, from a functional and technical lens, as well as from a leadership lens. And then the thing that I would underpin it is, I would say that the the good CHROs and those that read widely as well. So I think we’re in one of those fortunate roles where we see across the business, and we see connections, and we see alignment, and we see opportunities, because we are a business leader sitting across everything. And so I think the benefit of reading widely and reading across your industry and adjacent verticals, is quite often you see patterns or connections or things that others may miss because they’re more specialist in what they’re Looking at? So I’d say that’s the other thing for CHROs, is how are you broadening your knowledge? How are you bringing value through the things you read to the business leaders who support as well?

尼Verlinden:是的。我想我还想到的是:是的，他们看到了整个行业，但他们也看到了更广泛的社会。我认为我们越来越多地看到这种情况。我想这也是您刚才说我们需要及时了解时事时所涉及的内容。实际上，我认为这是这个角色的一个非常美妙的地方，因为它也与组织之外的世界有关。这与我们的业务有什么联系?是的，我的意思是，我认为这是一个非常令人兴奋的角色。哦，在我们稍微改变一下策略之前，还有一个问题，Narelle，当你第一次进入CHRO角色时，你学到的最大的一课是什么?我知道这对你来说已经有一段时间了，因为你已经演了很长一段时间了。但你认为你学到的最大的一课是什么?

Narelle伯克:所以我认为进入这样的角色的有趣之处在于，他们的范围通常更大。因此，这种能力-它的杠杆和规模的能力，所以你从一个市场开始，你从多个市场开始，你可能会去，你知道，在你最终担任全球或更广泛的区域角色之前，你可能会去许多不同的市场或地区。我认为你第一次进入这些角色是要知道你需要知道什么，不需要知道什么。因为当你，当你在市场或更小的角色时，你跨越一切，你了解正在发生的事情，你了解人，你了解业务，你对市场如何运作有深入的了解。我认为你越进步就越能真正理解你绝对需要知道的事情是什么?在你工作的团队中，你可以通过支持你的人获得哪些东西。所以我认为这是重要的一课。我们对我们的经理也是这样说的。角色越大，你所扮演的角色就越广，你不可能无所不知，也不应该无所不知。但你需要知道那些对商业成功至关重要的事情，并保持更新。 And you will go through a period of time where you’re like: “I’ve no control, I don’t, like, what’s happening? Am I across it? Do I know why on earth are they doing that over there? How did I not know about that?” And the reality is you won’t, and you need to be comfortable with that. But you do need to know, you need to be able to get the answers when you need it. And I think that’s one of the big things is, every market particularly I’m in Asia Pacific, at some point in time, one of the markets will have something that’s going on that is to do with the social environment, or the political or the economic environment, and you need to be able to respond, but you need to be able to do that in a way where you can confidently get the answers from your team when you need to. You don’t need to be across everything. You can’t be.

尼Verlinden:不。哦,是的。这是，这是一件值得记住的事情。谢谢你的分享。好了，我们一直在讨论CHRO的角色演变。还有另一种发展我们现在偶尔会看到。这是我个人非常兴奋的事情。这就是事实，我们看到chro，他们正在转变成不同的角色，不一定总是与人相关。例如，我们看到的是，CHRO正在承担多样化的投资组合，比如Old Mutual的CHRO现在还负责集团战略职能和人力资源职能，然后是雀巢的CHRO，他还负责一些其他职能，如商业服务。我想也许最引人注目的例子是联合利华的前首席执行官Leena Nair，她离开后成为了香奈儿的首席执行官。 Now a first question about this, I think ,Narelle, is: do you believe that stories like these will attract more non traditional talent to HR?

Narelle伯克:我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题。其实我并没有想太多。所以我认为，我认为这是一个有趣的发展。我认为这是一个明智的发展。而且可能会吸引更多的人加入。我认为进入人力资源部门是一个有意识的选择。因此，如果你和很多从他们的角色中成长起来的chro交谈过，在某个时间点，我敢打赌，我们中的大多数人都被要求承担其他事情。无论是不同类型的协议，谈判，建立不同的业务，其他职能角色，可能会扩展到通信或营销或其他你可能想要承担的角色。我认为问题又回到了:你为什么在人力资源部门工作，你想做什么?CHRO真的是你想要的角色吗? Or do you have aspirations as a business leader? And I think you end up with quite divergent people at the top, those who are deeply passionate about it want to stay in it, because it’s what they absolutely value, and those who have higher aspirations and want to see where the roll can take them and go into business leader roles. And I think those paths are both, you know, absolutely right. I think what I’m delighted about is that people are starting, and boards are starting to see the value that HR brings to a business. And that can only be good because the things we look after are things that are fundamental to sustainably growing good businesses over time. And so if they’re recognising that, I think it’s great. My hope is that they put the right support around it to make sure those people survive and thrive in those roles. When given the opportunity. I’d love to see more of these roles on boards as well, because I think it’s a critical gap in succession talent leadership, is having voices that actually understand how it’s done right.

尼Verlinden:100%。我认为这在过去的几年里并没有变得更容易。所以我完全同意你的观点。回到那个问题上，我认为你说的很好，是的，那些全心全意工作的人，他们可能会留在那里。还有一些人可能会进入另一种类型的职位。然而，我相信，chro，他们是这些不同类型角色的伟大潜在候选人，因为他们了解，或者在理想的世界里，他们了解业务的每一个方面。他们对公司的业务和人员都有非常广泛的了解。我认为这是一个神奇的组合。我认为这也是让他们成为潜在的优秀候选人的原因。是的，对C组的其他角色来说。 Anyhow, now, Narelle, one of my favourite parts of the podcast is the part where I get to ask my fabulous guests, you in this case about what they believe to be the biggest cliche that exists about HR. So yeah, that’s the first one I’m going to start with.

Narelle伯克:所以我认为这个术语，有很多，有很多。所以我想到的是HR做的是软工作。这让我抓狂。因为当我看着它的时候，没有什么是简单或柔软的——人是复杂的，人是深刻的人，而且，你知道，是有缺陷的人。所以你想想你周围世界里发生的每一件事，还有办公室里发生的每一件你希望能够处理的事情，还有协调人们、激励他们、支持他们、吸引他们、培养他们的能力。你看着它，你会说:“怎么这么软?”它是企业绩效的基础。我认为这是陈词滥调，我认为这是过时的。我认为，不了解人力资源团队价值的组织，要么需要在内部品牌建设上做文章，以展示这种价值，要么就不应该担任领导层。这是这个角色的核心基础，我们还有很长的路要走。

尼Verlinden:漂亮的一个。是的。非常非常漂亮。谢谢你！谢谢你。我想问你的最后一件事是，纳瑞尔，你是否愿意和我们分享一个史诗般的胜利和一个史诗般的失败。现在我们有各种各样的，我们有个人的，专业的，组合的，任何你觉得舒服的分享。是的，也许，我们可以去那里。

Narelle伯克:所以我认为史诗般的失败，我会回到我职业生涯的早期。我认为担任更广泛的领导角色的能力取决于你管理自己的能力，管理你的时间的能力，以及在这方面有效的能力。在我职业生涯的早期，我大概在25岁左右，我要承担更广泛的角色，我无法管理我的时间，更不用说管理我自己，更不用说完成任务了。所以我太好了，对员工太尽心了，但没能做到这一点，最后陷入了对我非常不利的境地，因为我错过了一些关键的截止日期。我们之间存在着信任差距，所以，你知道，那个史诗般的失败，一个碰巧相信我的领导，信不信由你，我去上了一个时间管理课程，我知道，我明白了。现在我有一个-我认为这是一个相当了不起的系统，这意味着现在没有人会这样说。这不是自然而然的，这是很多艰苦的工作。我在职业生涯早期因为这个惹了很多麻烦。这可能是我这些年学到的最重要的一课。如果你想善于管理团队和经营企业，你需要非常善于管理自己，并对自己负责。 So that’s, that’s an epic fail and happy to share more on that. I think in terms of an epic win, I would have to say, you know, taking on Global Inclusion, Diversity at a time where it was, you know, the George Floyd incident had just happened. It was absolutely a challenging time in terms of companies, and being able to actually cite, you know, clear action that you’re taking and policy. I do not recommend taking on a global I&D role at a time of immense societal shifts, and changes, and incredible tension. And I have to say that the support that I got through that, it helped us to set up a more sustainable framework around how we look at inclusion and diversity, it enabled us to really look at what action we were taken in to put voices behind that. And it was so ensured that as an organisation, we were globally balanced in, not just having an Anglo view, Anglo-Western view of what we were doing across the company, that we were being nuanced in terms of the local markets. And we’ve got a fabulous, you know, I’ve let go of that portfolio. And we have a fabulous new leader who’s in there. And I think a lot of the work that we did early on has helped to set that up in terms of the focus that we’re doing, that I think taking that on at that time, and helping the company to move and navigate through that was incredibly challenging, but also a really good win for us, for our people, and for the communities we work in as well.

尼Verlinden:哇。是的。谢谢你！非常感谢你分享这些，我认为这两个都是很好的例子。因为我认为我们所谓的失败或史诗般的失败的美妙之处在于，每次类似的事情发生时，总会有一颗成长或改善的种子。所以实际上，我不认为失败这种事真的存在。我认为，这是一个非常好的例子，你刚才说的，是的，当然，你开始这个项目时的情况和环境非常艰难。至于那场史诗般的胜利，我可以想象，在当时，它可能真的不像是一场胜利。不过，谢谢你。非常感谢你和我们分享了这样一个强有力的例子。 And thank you very much as well, Narelle, for this fantastic conversation. And thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed it.

Narelle伯克:绝对的。

感谢大家再次收看《关于人力资源的一切》。我真的希望你和我一样喜欢这次谈话。如果你还没有订阅我们的频道。按下通知铃，与朋友、同事或家人分享这一集。非常感谢，再见!