不退休:是时候重新考虑职场年龄了

欢迎来到另一集激动人心的人力资源知识!这是为人力资源专业人士和商业领袖准备的系列文章，他们希望自己的组织能够经得起未来的挑战，并从行业专家、chro和思想领袖那里了解最新的趋势和见解。

为什么公司会忘记他们的老员工?在人力资源第二季的这一集中，我们与维多利亚·汤姆林森(CEO @ Next-Up)坐下来讨论人力资源部门如何重新考虑工作场所的年龄，以在退休前后为员工提供支持。

维多利亚是TEDx的演讲者，也是退休者领域的先驱。她的公司帮助公司和员工满怀信心地接近退休前。

在这段视频中，我们将讨论:

• 浪费人才的一代
• 如何将年龄多样性纳入DEIB策略
• 对不退休的人来说什么最重要

观看完整集，了解组织可以做些什么来克服技能短缺并利用他们所有的人才!

记录:

维多利亚•汤姆林森:但如果你要活100年，这在现在很正常，人们退休的时间可能比他们工作的时间还长。当我们谈到这一点时，这是相当令人震惊的。我们要说的是，不要仅仅把这看作是填满一点时间。如果他们真的退休了，他们需要考虑目标。因此，员工现在能做的是，考虑帮助员工谈论他们下一步想做什么。

尼Verlinden:大家好，欢迎来到全新一期的《人力资源知识》。我叫尼莉，我是你们的主持人。在今天的节目中，我请来了维多利亚·汤姆林森。维多利亚是Next Up的首席执行官和创始人，我们的谈话都是关于不退休和浪费人才的一代。这是一个我个人非常感兴趣的话题。所以我迫不及待地想和你们分享。但在我们进入这个话题之前，和往常一样，如果你还没有订阅我们的频道，点击通知铃，并点赞这个视频。享受。

尼Verlinden:欢迎来到新一期的人力资源知识。

尼Verlinden:现在，维多利亚，欢迎你来到我们的节目。你好吗?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:我很好。但说实话，我真的很想采访你，因为我喜欢你年轻，对这个话题充满热情。我真的很想知道原因。不管怎样，我们在这里。谢谢你邀请我。

尼Verlinden:不客气。维多利亚，在我们进入今天的话题之前，也许你可以告诉我们的观众更多关于你自己以及Next Up和你正在做的事情。

维多利亚•汤姆林森:好吧，我从来没有关心过年龄，但这一切都变得无关紧要了。所以我首先要说的是，这有点像开始一个AAA会议。我是Victoria Tomlinson，我是Next Up的首席执行官，今年67岁。如果上帝允许，我想再工作30年。我忘记了漫长的职业生涯。我不会用这个烦你的。我从制造业开始，我曾经为了一台印钞机环游世界。我在安永工作，在伦敦的领导团队。然后，我成立了一家公关营销公司，它变成了一个数字业务。三、四年前，我创办了Next Up，帮助人们退休。 And we could talk a bit more because I suddenly found people who wanted to use their skills and they were really struggling. And I realized we talk about retirement as if it’s this sort of joyous TV ad skipping on a beach in a sunny something or whatever. And actually is an extremely difficult time, and we are wasting the talents of people.

尼Verlinden:是的,是的。这是一个非常非常好的桥梁，实际上，维多利亚，这正是我邀请你来播客的原因。但对于我们的观众，我将提供一些背景。今年早些时候，维多利亚做了一个名为“被浪费的一代人才”的TED演讲。是的，就像我说的，这就是我联系维多利亚的原因，因为我觉得这真的是一个我们谈论得不够的话题。这也会对职场产生巨大的积极影响。但是让我们后退一步。让我们从头说起。维多利亚，也许你可以用几句话告诉我们。是啊，你说什么来着?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:是关于现在人们退休的。当他们离开老公司或其他公司时，他们迫切希望以新的方式使用他们的技能。我发现他们迷失了方向。这是一个真正的心理健康问题没有人谈论它。开始是因为我遇到了一些非常资深的人，他们讨厌LinkedIn。然后他们突然意识到，当你独自一人时，我们不再有电话簿了。别人怎么知道你是谁，你在做什么，你在哪里?他们来找我，让我帮他们处理领英、简历和介绍。他们希望这里有一个充满机会的世界。 They had all their careers, had people coming to them, and they felt a personal failure. And what I realized was that people are having a difficult time, but nobody’s really talking about it. It’s such a difficult time. No one’s really admitting to this, or not to themselves, how tough it is. And they can say, Oh, I’m retired. I’m looking after my grandchildren. I have lots of time for lunch. But when you got under that and heard the real stories, it was really, it was not happy. And I think we haven’t got to terms with this 100-year life and what it really means for everybody, individuals, employers, society, everyone.

尼Verlinden:是的,当然。我稍后会讲到这一点。因为我们要让它变得非常有形，我们要看看我们每个人都能在这方面做些什么。还有整个社会。但在此之前，维多利亚，我知道在你的TED演讲中，你也说过你做了一些研究。你发现75%的50岁以上的人并没有真正使用和认可这些技能。你还发现87%的公司没有为50岁以上的人投资先进的IT技能。那么，为什么你认为公司会忘记这部分员工呢?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:我认为原因很复杂。但我要简化我的想法，因为这是一个非常好的问题，你几乎以不同的方式问了我。我认为这是从某种程度上回到这种技术问题，我曾经有过自己的业务，我提到过它是公关，数字等。我花了很多时间试图让商业领袖拥有社交媒体。有他们不了解的巨大机会，但也有巨大的风险。他们并没有参与其中。他们允许发生的事情是年轻一代进入，他们没有真正需要的技能在社交媒体上，但是损失或者去，哦，他们懂技术，这是巨大的。老实说，当你在1920年的时候，你不可能理解科技或社交媒体。它们让人们与科技分离。可以说，哦，我不搞技术。这几乎成了一种品牌。 Whoa, you know, I’m so wonderful and wise and old. I wouldn’t get into this awful social media, into technology, into whatever. So it’s become acceptable for the older generation not to get into tech, and employers didn’t invest in the technology. I mean, this was a shocking finding. And when I found it, it was construction companies. And 87% said it wasn’t necessary to invest in advanced IT skills of the 50-plus generation, but just up a minute, that’s a generation that is managing and supervising the younger people. They’re making the business case and the investment. And no wonder we don’t use technology properly. Because if they had trained those people in advance IT, they would then have thought, we need to rethink how we do this work, we need to rethink. We don’t need people here. We should be redoing everything instead of which we get technology coming in, adding on and to existing rather than really using that opportunity. So I think the problem has really become that. Obviously, if you’re not investing in those IT skills, employers are seeing them as not relevant anymore because they don’t understand tech, etc. And it’s been seen as a kind of Deadwood, if you like, that the few people who do own and take their own training into their hand, it’s fine. But as a workforce, people are being seen as not relevant, not useful, not engaged, etc. And then you don’t use them, and you don’t use their opportunities, and you don’t invest. And it’s all a vicious circle.

尼Verlinden:是的,当然。正如我在谈话开始时提到的，我真的相信，我想你们也相信，因为否则，你们就不会做你们现在做的事情，这里存在着一个巨大的机会，对于那些即将退休或已经退休的人，以及那些正在努力寻找优秀人才的组织，我真的想花一分钟谈谈我们如何重新思考年龄和退休。首先，雇主在这方面可以做些什么?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:有趣的是，我在我们的业务中有两个部分。我们处在最前沿，老实说，很难卖出去，因为都是新产品。但一旦雇主明白了，会发生令人惊讶的事情。因此，我们正在与专业公司和资深人士合作，为他们举办研讨会。实际上，人们都有退休问题。这是公司里的一个现实问题。没人想谈论工作时间，他们甚至不愿谈论退休。所以我们现在有了年龄歧视的立法，这使得开放和讨论你未来的计划变得更加困难。所以雇主们都很纠结，我知道，这对他们来说并不容易。我认为这是关键。 People think, oh, you’ve been really loyal. You’ve given us 20, 30, whatever years. That’s just let you glide into and, you know, and have a happy retirement when the individual is going through stacks of emotions. And what’s happening with the workshops is people are going, do you know, I had somebody say, after the workshop, do you know, I haven’t even told my wife or my secretary that I’m here because I don’t want to talk about the R-word at all. And he said, now I realize that’s ridiculous. I need to talk about it. I need to plan. I need to do succession planning and help. I need to start thinking about my future. And you sort of think, what have we just unlocked there for the employer? And he’s saying, I’ve suddenly realized I’ve got a whole future that I could do all sorts of things. Whereas I thought I was just gonna think about a couple of years as I do this and that. But if you’re going to live for 100 years, which is very normal now, people can be retired for longer than they’ve worked. And that’s quite a shock when we talk about that. And what we’re saying is don’t just think about this as filling a bit of time. But really think about it, and for some people, they want to retire. And we’re not trying to stop people. If they do, they need to think about purpose, then. So what employees can do now is to think about helping people to talk about what they want to do next. They invest heavily in the early years of their careers. They invest almost nothing at the end of people’s careers, you know, not just in tech, but in all sorts of things. So I think, first of all, if they were to put age into their diversity, their DNI strategy, and started dicing the stats by age, a whole bunch of things would come out. It would come out that employees are not engaged at this age. They don’t feel their skills are used. And they would then start thinking about what we are doing wrong and have discussions and expect more of people. And if preparing people for retirement – who can hardly imagine how to better use that word – then they can also think about what else they could be doing now that would help them in the future and add value to the organization now. So, for instance, we’re trying to get people looking at every company that has ESG initiatives, you know, zero carbon, target emission targets, and things like more women into leadership positions recruiting from more diverse pools, I could go on. Now, this would be a great thing for people to get involved in before they leave to start adding to what they’re doing. They would add huge value because a lot of this is people skills and relationship skills, and they would then be getting something new that’s topical and relevant once they’ve left that they might want to continue on in another way. So I think the other bit that’s happened is that employers, for the nicest reasons, don’t want to bother their employees once they’ve left who, you know, let them enjoy retirement, not understanding, they would love to be bothered. And actually, what they should be doing is working together to say, look, what would you like to do for the future? And how could we use your skills in the organization?

尼Verlinden:当我准备今天的播客时，我想到的是人们不退休。我也可以看到组织不会想，好吧，但是这意味着什么，比如说，对于我们的继任，对于我们的人才继任计划?但我认为我们在这里应该弄清楚的是不退休并不一定意味着人们会在他们目前的职位上呆得更久，对吧?无论如何，这就是我的理解。

维多利亚•汤姆林森:不不不，你说得对。是的。所以如果我解释我们所看到的，作为不退休，这是相当困难的语言。目前还没有专门的词汇来描述这种情况。所以我们说的是，你已经离开了你的全职工作，你不想再找一份这样的全职工作来攀登你的职业阶梯，你想做的是用新的方式使用你的技能。你知道，我们正在和律师合作。他们中的大多数人，事实上，我认为他们所有人，现在还没有人想当律师。但我们关注的是他们在职业生涯中获得的所有技能。事实上，大部分都与法律无关。这是关于管理人员。 It’s about building relationships, it’s all sorts of things there and expertise. So it’s actually how they use those skills at this next stage. And what most people want is they don’t want that 24/7 lifestyle. That’s what kills most people in terms of enjoying their job. It’s the planes at three o’clock in the morning, it’s on the trains, it is endless meetings, that kind of hamster wheel. They don’t want that anymore. Let me explain what we’ve done. We’ve been getting unretired people to mentor tech entrepreneurs. And it was me slightly being sneaky to get them into tech without them kind of realizing. And initially, people go, Oh, I put your tech in it with that title thing. Oh, I can’t do tech. And I’ve said don’t worry, these younger generations, they know all the tech they need, don’t worry. What they miss are things like people skills. We’ve done some sessions where I went around the room have a mentoring session going on. And I could hear the older generation going, I’m sorry, just can you explain your business again? I don’t understand it. And I thought actually, and the younger ones were going, this is brilliant because I’ve only been talking to people in my own bubble, if you like, who understand. And actually, if I’m going to get out funding, I’m going out for funding, I’m going to have to explain to white middle-aged men and women or whatever, and they don’t understand this. So I’m going to have to rethink how I explain it. So that’s a classic example there of what the older generation can bring to the youngest. And very often, there were a lot of people issues that they had. And as soon as I remember, one can say, as soon as I started telling at a table, and it was a session there, she said, when I started to explain my problem, I could see in all your eyes, you knew exactly what the problem was. And she said I’ve been struggling for months with this. And what the problem was, I won’t go into details, but she was a different timescale. And she did everything by email. And she said it always worked well in London when she was there or in New York. But she said, it’s not working and all the other. It’s because she needed to talk to people. It was really obvious what was happening. Yeah. So I think it’s such a lot that the older generation can offer, and we don’t we are wasting that experience.

尼Verlinden:是的，我百分百同意。在这方面，这是我在想的另一件事，维多利亚，也许在这方面，零工工作真的可以很好地工作，也可以不好地工作。

维多利亚•汤姆林森:有很多零工工作，人们没有得到很好的待遇。我们这么说吧。实际上在这个阶段人们关心的是，说实话，现在很多人都退休了，钱不是他们最优先考虑的。是的，他们可能会喜欢，特别是考虑到目前的生活成本问题，是的，他们可能想要更多的钱，他们可能需要更多的钱。但实际上，在这个阶段，对他们来说更重要的是感觉受到重视和善待。他们有选择。我们的老一辈人不想继续工作，也不想回到劳动力市场。这是因为他们现在有了选择。雇主们需要考虑是什么激励他们。这都是关于你被重视和尊重的感觉。 And that you’re adding value here, so people don’t just want to come into an office and be given a whole pile of something and never talk to anybody in a corner or whatever, that is not going to turn it on for the older generation. I’m generalizing here because for some people, they may need the money and that will be fine. You know, that will do. But I’m thinking about it generally and it doesn’t really matter. I have been initially working with senior people, but I’m now beginning to realize the firemen, policemen, nurses, you know, it’s people who have been administrators, receptionists, man, it doesn’t matter what you’ve been. The issues are really, very across the whole board. They’re the same.

尼Verlinden:你在这里简单提到过，有些人不想继续工作。再一次，我想这有点泛化了。但是，是什么阻碍了这些人想要重返职场呢?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:说实话，一旦人们离开了全职工作，他们需要一点时间来重新调整心理。但是发生了什么，我现在看到的是什么，我们的同事卡洛琳，写了一个博客。必威 官方网站她担任了一家慈善机构的受托人，那是一家临终关怀医院。她在那里待了几年。她突然意识到这比她的有偿工作更有价值。所以她没有因为这个新角色得到报酬。她说，当她意识到我从志愿工作中得到的比从工作中得到的更多时，这是一个转折点。她说我在大量学习。她说这很复杂。她正在学习如何帮助这个阶段的人，他们的家庭，资金，以及他们需要什么样的护理。 She said it was extremely challenging, you know, getting funding and things is really hard. But she said, I really felt I could add value to them. And I felt personally rewarded. So it wasn’t about the money at all. And I’m seeing this time and again. I’m not saying that money doesn’t matter because of course, it does. And she said you don’t spend as much when you’re retired. You know, the clothes, the parking, the travel that you’re there, the lunches, the prep lunches, and the coffees that you pick up. She said it’s amazing what you waste with what you don’t need. And she said, and she would be typical of a lot of people I see when they say once you’ve got over that initial status problem. Yes, it is to start with it. You know, people say one minute I was kind of god up here. And then the next day, who am I? Nobody. So that is a shock to people. But once they’ve got over that bit of it, well, then status doesn’t really matter so much anymore. And we ask people what matters to you at this next stage is to do a questionnaire before our workshops. And we ask them status or money or feeling useful and relevant. It’s always feeling useful and relevant. A few people put money or status. It is very few. Yeah, of course, one or two people go yes. I’m glad about that. And that’s fine. But very few really matter about that.

尼Verlinden:但这听起来真的很棒。我认为维多利亚最重要的是感觉自己是有用的和有价值的。我已经提过几次了。但是让我们谈谈我们能做些什么实际的事情。让我们从大的开始，然后，你知道，缩小范围，所以首先，我认为社会对我们如何看待即将退休或已经退休的人有所贡献。让我们从这个开始。你对此有什么看法?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:所以我的一个改变建议是，把60或70岁的人想象成30或40岁的人。所以期待更多这样的例子。把他们想象成非常有能力，有能力，有贡献的人。社会普遍不应再把人口老龄化视为一个问题。他们必须开始将其视为机遇，当然，围绕人口老龄化的大量问题。但你知道吗，当人们在五六十岁退休时，他们实际上还有20年左右的宝贵贡献。我们越让他们活跃，他们就越不会孤独，在养老院被孤立，退休本身，我意识到，很多医生说，你老了10岁，退休不到两年，如果你不积极参与，你就会精神上和身体上生病。所以我们没有使用这些技能就造成了老龄化的问题。这是一个大问题。所以我认为我们能做的就是重新思考我们对人的看法。 And I would suggest everybody should go and talk to somebody who retired in recent times, and understand what it really like, really get to understand that, and then think, what could we have done as an employer? As somebody’s friend or family, what could we have done differently?

尼Verlinden:你认为怎样才能马上开始创业?你和与你合作的公司做了什么，你看到他们做了什么?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:就像我说的，我刚刚推出Next Up，大概四年前。当然，COVID冲击了所有东西，所以这对大多数人来说不是优先考虑的事情。但我们正在尝试做的是开始对话，我们实际上做了很多事情。我们创建了一个在线平台。我很乐意与雇主合作，让人们对它进行测试。我们这里有一些很棒的名字。但这一切都很慢。你知道，我没有所有的证据，我知道什么会起作用，但我不一定有证据。但我认为他们能做的是来和我们谈谈，首先，我们很乐意帮忙，看看我们能做些什么。这并不需要很贵。 The return is going to be 10 times more than any investment. It is really small. I was talking to a colleague yesterday. And he said, Oh my god, I love this. He said we’ve got a skills shortage, people retiring. I said, well, what conversations do you have with people before they retire? Silence. I said, well, that’s the first place to start. And I said, look, let’s work with a pilot group. And let’s, first of all, have those conversations. They can solve their own problems here, they can solve your skills crisis to some extent, and all the rest. So the second thing is to put age as part of your D&I strategy and measurements. And when you start looking at the figures by age, you will be shocked. And there are the obvious things that you could be doing. I think, also, you know, the big firms and the kind of global names like McKinsey’s have huge alumni groups. And it all sounds a bit grand and kind of very historic senior, whatever. But actually, you know, when I started my career all those years ago, I was in manufacturing, they used to have a clubs, kind of like a working men’s club that they used to have, where people could come back and play snooker and have a beer and whatever because they were missing the men. And it strikes me that we’ve stopped this kind of community bit they used to go on. And I know that ICI, somebody I’ve worked with, her husband had a role for ICI, and he goes and sees, I think he might still do it. He goes to see people who have retired every year to check whether they’re okay, and whatever. Now, that’s all a bit paternalistic. It’s kind of rather old-fashioned, it’s okay. But actually, what we need is the modern version of that, which is creating groups and sort of societies that are supportive that continue on, but also that the employees could call on to say, we’ve got this big project, who’d like to get involved? And I think that they would do it for free. Now, I talked to a big bank about this. And they said, the trouble is, if you do things for free, then those skills aren’t valued, and there is something behind that. So it’s a question of finding these people who would do it for free. But you’ve got to find a way that they’re then valued and appreciated by other employees who are being paid, and you’ve got to make sure that they don’t feel that their jobs are being taken because people are doing it for free. It’s a question of how do they add value to what you’re doing. And as I said, I wish I had more examples. I’ve got lots of compensation as employers who are so interested, but it’s all just beginning. And it’s very slow. So I would love anybody to come and talk, and let’s get the pilots in the evidence of all of this.

尼Verlinden:是的,当然。但我确实认为这是会发生的。维多利亚，我认为这种情况会越来越多。此外，我总是喜欢问每位嘉宾，维多利亚，他们认为关于人力资源的最大陈词滥调是什么。

维多利亚•汤姆林森:我很犹豫，因为我想和HR交朋友。但我认为最老套的是他们不是商人。我说的是最广泛的意义。因此，他们不会从业务主管的角度来看待问题。我去年做了一个演讲，我讲了整个D&I之类的。我认为有很多问题，我们可以再讨论一下人们谈论帮助女性所发生的事情。现在我很清楚，我是一个先锋女性，我在各个方面都遥遥领先，是唯一一个在领导层或其他职位上的女性。但有人说人力资源不是为员工服务的，而是为公司服务的。这是资产管理业务的领导者。我一直在工作。 You’re nodding, Neelie, I can’t understand the business is the people. That’s what we always say, anyway. I don’t get this. So I am kind of left a bit…I don’t know what the word is. But I kind of don’t understand that. So for me, the biggest cliche, I’m sure it isn’t right. But it is about the need to be more business engaged, that that would be my, and you meet some who are super, super engaged and fantastic, and they really understand their business. But that would be my cliche.

尼Verlinden:非常感谢。还有一件事我总是想问维多利亚。前提是你想和我们一起分享史诗般的胜利和史诗般的失败。现在，它可以是任何东西。它可以是私人的，可以是专业的，也可以是两者的结合。你能想到什么吗?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:是的。所以很明显，你知道，我对这项业务非常兴奋。你大概能看出来。我对我们正在做的事情充满激情。我一点也不觉得自己像个老太太。所以我仍然对我们正在做的事情感到兴奋。所以史诗般的胜利是当我们开始赢得四大魔术圈的工作坊时。我就像个孩子一样，天哪，我们做到了，你知道，在那个市场上是不可思议的。这对我来说很重要，我很幼稚，对任何人创业都很兴奋，不管年龄多大，你仍然有创业的潜力。是的，我们正在改变世界。 And the epic fail on the other side. I know we were talking about this. It is really interesting. So I started this business because people were being sent to me, very senior people who needed help. And I’ve got this business helping individuals. And so we launched. I can’t tell you how many people said, you wouldn’t make it work with individuals necessarily. You know, as a bit smug, maybe, we’ve got the evidence. They’re coming to us. I’ve had dozens of people completely fail. And what was interesting, when we went out to market, we bore in mind how many females are our percentage of that senior market. 95% of the people who were paying us to help them were women. That was extraordinary, I know. Your face. I couldn’t believe it. So that was my failure, thinking that I could make this work for individuals. The men, I think they think: I can do it. So a bit of pride there, I don’t need help, etc. The women just go, I need help, get on. Let’s have fun and get a job. So we had to flip the business and said, that’s why we’re there working with corporates, and I think actually, we can make far more impact this way. I’m really pleased that it worked out that way, if I’m honest, because I think the impact through organizations and society that we can do this way is huge. Whereas I don’t think we’d have achieved the same way of working with individuals. We work with individuals if they come to us, but it’s not the core part of what we do anymore.

尼Verlinden:好的，维多利亚，非常感谢你参加我的节目。是啊，真是太荣幸了。我的意思是，对我来说，基本上很难，你知道，保持简短，因为这真的是一件我可以谈论几个小时的事情。但我还有最后一个问题要问你。所以希望听众中有很多人现在想要联系你，因为他们想要听到更多关于这方面的信息，他们想知道他们可以在自己的组织和自己的人力资源部门开始做些什么。那么，人们在什么地方最能找到你呢?

维多利亚•汤姆林森:好吧，当然，我在LinkedIn上，你不会期望别的。但同时，www.next-up.com。别忘了连字符是我们说的。我们有一个播客分享这个时代的故事，但我们时不时地采访这个市场的人。也许我们可以一起分享。

尼Verlinden:是的，是的，当然。我非常非常乐意加入你，维多利亚。是啊，那太棒了。是的，非常感谢。感谢大家收看今天的节目。我真的希望你和我一样喜欢。如果你想联系维多利亚下一个，请这样做。在你离开之前，如果你还没有订阅这个频道。按下通知铃，点赞这个视频。非常感谢大家，我们下次再见。